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Multiclassing sucks for a caster in 3e, because you fall behind in spell levels and nothing is really worth the loss of spell levels; designing caster PrCs is hard because most casters don't have much to give up outside of spell levels, which is a bad idea. The following is an idea to hopefully fix both of these problems or at least mitigate them to an extent.

Multiclassing

1) Every spellcasting class has a spellcasting level, or SL. SL equals levels in that spellcasting class plus half of your combined levels in all other classes. SL is unrelated to CL and cannot in any way be raised above your character level or even increased by any other means.

2) Change the spellcasting progression charts for each class to give the number of spells/day gained at a certain level, rather than a cumulative total. If you gain more than 1 spell of a given spell level at a time, take those out of the table and make them class features. Do the same thing for the spells known table, if applicable. For instance, the cleric spells/day table goes from this:
...to this:
Which particular spells get pulled into class features and what you call it is up to you. A cleric would probably put domain spells there, a specialist wizard would put specialist spells there, a sorcerer's feature would be called Arcane Blood; basically, name and allocate to taste.

3) When you gain a level in a spellcasting level, you gain the spells/day and spells known indicated by the line of the table corresponding to your current SL. For instance, a cleric 1/fighter 2 (cleric SL 2) who takes another level of cleric (increasing his SL to 3) gains 1 2nd-level spell per day from the chart, for a total spells/day of 3/2/1, compared to a normal cleric 2/fighter 2's spells/day of 4/3 and a cleric 3's spells/day of 4/3/2. (He doesn't gain the 1 2nd-level spell from his cleric class feature, since he's only a cleric 2.)

Using this system, a single-class character has exactly the same progression as he otherwise would; a multiclass caster with roughly half-and-half caster/noncaster levels stays on track for higher-level spell slots while reducing the number gained; a mostly-noncaster who dips a caster level can get something closer to level-appropriate.

PrCs

This change affects PrCs in three ways. First, because going into a PrC at all forces you to give up on those spells/day in the class feature column, you lose out on a bit of power by PrCing, making it no longer as much of a no-brainer choice to PrC out at first opportunity. Second, because losing the occasional level of "+1 spellcasting" isn't as debilitating anymore, the stronger caster PrCs can be balanced by the loss of a few casting levels without crippling anyone.

Thirdly and most importantly, theurge-type multiclassing-patch PrCs are no longer necessary. Mystic Theurge is now a 1-3 feat chain that effectively lets you stack two chosen classes at a 1:1 rate instead of 1:2 rate to determine SL for both of them. To illustrate, here's what a Cleric 10/Wizard 10 with the Mystic Theurge feat(s) who alternates levels looks like:
This character has a total spells/day of 8/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/3/3, compared to the 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5 of a cleric 20, and of course it has bonus spells for both classes; he exchanges some higher level spell slots for lower level spell slots and the ability to prepare from 2 lists (spells per day break down into 3/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1/2 arcane and 5/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/1 divine). It's only 1 level behind in terms of spell acquisition, same as a sorcerer, and there isn't really any period where it lags noticeably relative to other points of the progression.

Disadvantages

Obviously, going through and changing the spell tables for each casting class will take some work, though this only needs to be done once per class, and only for classes that will be used for multiclass characters. Leveling up a character will take longer than just looking at a chart; like Tome of Battle characters, planning out a progression is likewise harder. As well, it doesn't work out nearly as nicely for caster X/other caster 1 builds or other caster dips, also like Tome of Battle classes, but at least getting some higher-level slots is better than always getting 1st-level slots.


So...thoughts?

Multiclassing sucks for a caster in 3e, because you fall behind in spell levels and nothing is really worth the loss of spell levels; designing caster PrCs is hard because most casters don't have much to give up outside of spell levels, which is a bad idea. The following is an idea to hopefully fix both of these problems or at least mitigate them to an extent.

You don't seem to have fixed either of those problems?

I mean, sure, if I'm playing someone who isn't a Cleric, Druid, or Wizard, I can stop that and take high level spells later on in life instead, and everyone can cast Black Tentacles and Heal, but I can't ever stop taking caster levels because then I fall behind in all the best stuff.

Freely mixing Wizard and Cleric without real cost doesn't seem like it helps the game. They're already both quite good.

I guess you're going to steal spell slots to give caster prestige classes their tricks, which you can do anyway, but either way that's actual work to balance, and can't take much longer than doing this anyway.


Have you considered spell points? Because you can just let everyone buy level-appropriate slots with them, eh (limited by the table at total character level). No matter if you're Wiz1+Ftr16 or Ftr16+Wiz1, you can take your 1+Int+items+feats spell points and buy whatever suits.

tussock wrote:You don't seem to have fixed either of those problems?

I mean, sure, if I'm playing someone who isn't a Cleric, Druid, or Wizard, I can stop that and take high level spells later on in life instead, and everyone can cast Black Tentacles and Heal, but I can't ever stop taking caster levels because then I fall behind in all the best stuff.

You still fall behind to a certain extent, of course, you can't really make it beneficial for a caster to multiclass, but this mitigates the suck for people who want to do it. A wizard 6/fighter 6 who alternates levels has 3rd level spells and is 3 spell levels behind under the base system, and has 5th level spells and is only 1 spell level behind under this system. Multiclassing as a caster has become at least a semi-viable option instead of Thou Shalt Never Lose Caster Levels Ever, I think, and that's what I'm trying to do here.

Freely mixing Wizard and Cleric without real cost doesn't seem like it helps the game. They're already both quite good.

You can already basically do that with Mystic Theurge; an early-entry build with, say, wizard 1/cleric 2/mystic theurge 10/wizard +1 casts as a full wizard 12 and a full cleric 12, whereas a wizard 7/cleric 7 under this system casts as almost a wizard 10 and almost a cleric 10 even without the MT feat(s) . The early-entry MT is too good, giving up only a level or two of casting to gain an entire second progression, while the normal-entry MT sucks, lagging 6 level behind, and this version lies somewhere in the middle. You don't give up a level or two for an entire separate progression, you give up half of your spells for half the spells from another progression.

I guess you're going to steal spell slots to give caster prestige classes their tricks, which you can do anyway, but either way that's actual work to balance, and can't take much longer than doing this anyway.

I wasn't referring to taking away individual slots like an archmage, I was referring to the fact that losing a spellcasting level is only 1-2 spell slots now instead of permanently holding you back one level of advancement; if you say that full casting PrCs add their levels fully to SL but only advance casting at the levels they say they do, suddenly a wizard 5/mindbender 10 doesn't cast as a wizard 10, he casts as a wizard 15 who's about a half-dozen spell slots down, which should be roughly balanced with the better class abilities he gains. PrCs can actually trade general power for specific power in their niche, instead of having to choose between "full caster++" and "gimped caster who doesn't make up for what he loses."

Have you considered spell points? Because you can just let everyone buy level-appropriate slots with them, eh (limited by the table at total character level). No matter if you're Wiz1+Ftr16 or Ftr16+Wiz1, you can take your 1+Int+items+feats spell points and buy whatever suits.

I have indeed, there are a bunch of fixes to caster multiclassing out there there that work to varying degrees, I was just putting this one up here to see what people thought of it.

I like the idea of peeling off the extra spell slots, that's a nice touch. However, it disproportionately benefits wizards, which is less than ideal. Under this system I'd force all wizards to specialize and then allow spells to be reduced to zero (so a specialist wizard would get 0+1 spells when taking a PrC). Druids would have to rely on a high wisdom. Too fucking bad for them.


I once came up with a slightly simpler but more mathematical solution to the same problem. I'm not sure which I like better. They both have some strange breakpoints, but on the whole I think yours is much more in the spirit of 3e.

Theurges, even with early entry, are made of ass. Sacrificing level-appropriate spells to cast as well as a cohort off two lists with one set of actions is a terrible deal. Just take Leadership and get yourself an actual Cleric cohort. If that isn't an option, I guess you'll just have to settle for having level-appropriate Wizard spellcasting.

Being level 14 (your Wizard 7/Cleric 7 example) and casting 5th-level spells is unacceptable. That is two spell levels behind the curve. That means that if you had a cohort, and your cohort had a cohort, they would collectively have equal or superior spellcasting with more actions and less MAD. Fuck that noise.

This is all irrelevant anyway, since if you, as a Wizard, want to cast Cleric spells (although if you wanted to do that you could've just been a Cleric and thus a fundamentally better class) you can totally do that. You can find a naga or a dragon or whatever and have him make you sorcerer/wizard scrolls of cleric spells and write that shit into your spell book. Boom, you now have dual-list casting without crippling your spellcasting progression and fucking up your stat requirements.

TL;DR - Theurges always suck ass and Wizards can get all the Cleric spells they want on their spell list right in Core.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I like the idea of peeling off the extra spell slots, that's a nice touch. However, it disproportionately benefits wizards, which is less than ideal. Under this system I'd force all wizards to specialize and then allow spells to be reduced to zero (so a specialist wizard would get 0+1 spells when taking a PrC). Druids would have to rely on a high wisdom. Too fucking bad for them.

True. I haven't seen a generalist wizard at my table in quite a while, so I didn't consider forcing anyone to specialize, but that's a good idea.

Echoes wrote:Theurges, even with early entry, are made of ass. Sacrificing level-appropriate spells to cast as well as a cohort off two lists with one set of actions is a terrible deal. Just take Leadership and get yourself an actual Cleric cohort. If that isn't an option, I guess you'll just have to settle for having level-appropriate Wizard spellcasting.

Being level 14 (your Wizard 7/Cleric 7 example) and casting 5th-level spells is unacceptable. That is two spell levels behind the curve. That means that if you had a cohort, and your cohort had a cohort, they would collectively have equal or superior spellcasting with more actions and less MAD. Fuck that noise.

Again, the wizard 7/cleric 7 casts 5th level spells before the MT feat(s); with it/them, he still casts 7th level spells just like a wizard 14, it's just that roughly half of them are arcane and half are divine. You'd never really go half-and-half without the feat if you wanted to be an MT type, I was just pointing out that without going MT you aren't actually "freely mixing Wizard and Cleric without real cost" under this system.

This is all irrelevant anyway, since if you, as a Wizard, want to cast Cleric spells (although if you wanted to do that you could've just been a Cleric and thus a fundamentally better class) you can totally do that. You can find a naga or a dragon or whatever and have him make you sorcerer/wizard scrolls of cleric spells and write that shit into your spell book. Boom, you now have dual-list casting without crippling your spellcasting progression and fucking up your stat requirements.

TL;DR - Theurges always suck ass and Wizards can get all the Cleric spells they want on their spell list right in Core.

This isn't just a mystic theurge change, it's also for gishes and caster PrCs. That works for wizards wanting to cast off other lists, but not for clerics, druids, beguilers, etc., and it doesn't work for other wizard/X combos either.

Emerald wrote:I wasn't referring to taking away individual slots like an archmage,

That is what you're doing though, just kinda randomly based on whatever level you take each class at rather than what the ability is actually worth. Why not do it directly? All the multiclass casters are written for you already as various classes, just steal appropriate spell slots for each bonus power they get and let spell levels continue.

OK, too much like hard work. Meh, Gestalt everything: -1 spell per level for each extra class you're advancing, -2 if it's a full caster. Same for spells known. Le simple.

I like this system. It is a good system.

I don't understand this system....

Dominicius wrote:I don't understand this system....

What in particular is confusing about it?

What does it actually do other than leave casters with less spells per day? How does it help multiclassed characters?

Dominicius wrote:What does it actually do other than leave casters with less spells per day? How does it help multiclassed characters?

It leaves single-class casters with the same number of spells per day and multi-class casters with slightly fewer spells than a primary caster. Multi-class casters are still asstastic, but they're far less asstastic than they were before.

Vebyast wrote:

Dominicius wrote:What does it actually do other than leave casters with less spells per day? How does it help multiclassed characters?

It leaves single-class casters with the same number of spells per day and multi-class casters with slightly fewer spells than a primary caster. Multi-class casters are still asstastic, but they're far less asstastic than they were before.

Essentially. Instead of chopping off your top spell levels as a multiclass caster, you keep up with single-class casters minus a caster level or two and just thin out the lower level of spells. It's kind of like an anti-mystic theurge fix, trading some lower-level spells to keep higher-level spells.

Ok cool, could you re-explain the second step? I think that is the one I am having trouble understanding.

Dominicius wrote:Ok cool, could you re-explain the second step? I think that is the one I am having trouble understanding.

Sure. Breaking it down into substeps:

2a) Start with the base casting table for a given class, in this case the cleric.
2b) Instead of having each line show the cumulative total spells known of that level at that point, change it to show the number of spells gained at that level at that point, so for instance 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 becomes 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1. The cleric table changes as follows:
2c) If any level gives you more than 1 spell of a given spell level, take all but 1 of those spells and move them to a class feature in the Special column, like so:
As mentioned earlier, which particular spells get pulled into class features and what you call it is up to you. You could put the cleric's domain slots in the Special column if you valued the ability to cast off-list spells higher, or you could make those generic slots (leaving the "+1 domain spell" slots in the regular table) if you valued the differentiation between clerics higher.

Step 2c isn't strictly necessary for the system to work, but I did it that way because (A) it prevents you from having some levels that grant a lot more spells than other levels (like the level a cleric gets another domain slot or a sorcerer gets his 3/day of a new level) and (B) having some slots gained as class features gives some benefit to a single-class caster when normally PrCing out ASAP is a good idea and under this system even more PrCs than before are at least viable.

Does that clear it up?